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This question is not answered. Helpful answers available: 2. Correct answers available: 1.


Permlink Replies: 22 - Pages: 2 [ Previous | 1 2 ] - Last Post: May 4, 2017 1:21 PM by: Ammara Verik Threads: [ Previous | Next ]
RobertMitchell

Posts: 9
Registered: 9/5/07
Re: Benefits to getting certified
Posted: Feb 19, 2008 5:38 PM   in response to: david tran
 
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Hi David,

As someone who is half way around the world from the CCMA testing centre, I think I have much, much more reason to quibble about out-of-pocket expenses for this exam....

Your argument about "taking a loss" so you can sit the CCMA exam is a bit rich... You assume that the prior certs have no value - that's untrue. You also miss the point about having the CCMA certification - it's supposed to be an elite cert, for people who have a substantial history and interest in CP products. If you've managed to go 3-5+ years at the level that I would expect to even qualify for this exam, then it would be very hard indeed to have not been in an employment situation where you would have been expected to get the certs regardless.

Having a series of certs prior to the CCMA also protects the CCMA from being taken as an opportunistic certification by people who may be good at exams, rather than committed to the technology. I think Ken would be the first to say that the CCMA is far from a "cash cow" - I'd expect it'd be designed to break even at best. Your idea that reducing the exam requirements would only get "serious" candidates is deeply flawed. A "one-shot" exam would encourage a boot-camp mentality which I would suggest is contrary to what this cert is about. While it may be easier for you and me to sit a single exam, ultimately that sort of setup would de-value the certification.

Of course, the cert has no value at the moment anyway... CP, will you ever tell us what the benefits are???

david tran

Posts: 75
Registered: 6/20/07
Re: Benefits to getting certified
Posted: Feb 19, 2008 7:52 PM   in response to: RobertMitchell
 
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"You assume that the prior certs have no value - that's untrue."

I beg to differ. There are pass4sure and testking prep materials
that will allow you to pass CCSA/SE/SE+ in no time.

"Having a series of certs prior to the CCMA also protects the
CCMA from being taken as an opportunistic certification by
people who may be good at exams, rather than committed to the
technology"

Are you saying that, as an anology, for someone who know
calculus and quantum physics, in order to take calculus and
physics exams, they have to take the basic adding and
substracting exams? It's a waste of time.

"A "one-shot" exam would encourage a boot-camp mentality
which I would suggest is contrary to what this cert is about."

Bootcamp will exist as long as there is a demand for
any kind of certs such as Cisco or Juniper. There is no
way to get around that. If/when CCMA becomes popular, you will
see CCMA bootcamp.

"If you've managed to go 3-5+ years at the level that
I would expect to even qualify for this exam, then it
would be very hard indeed to have not been in an employment
situation where you would have been expected to get the certs
regardless."

Each person situation is different. I work with CP about 40%
of the time, 40% of the time with Cisco products and the
other 20% of time with Juniper products.

"Your idea that reducing the exam requirements would only
get "serious" candidates is deeply flawed. A "one-shot"
exam would encourage a boot-camp mentality which I would
suggest is contrary to what this cert is about."

It is not deeply flawed. As I've said before, the real
meat in the CCMA program is the CCMA lab exam. Do you know
that only about 3% of the people who passed the CCIE written
exam actually passed the CCIE lab exam? Of those who passed
the CCIE lab exam, it takes, on average, 3 attempts to pass
the CCIE lab exam. For Juniper JNCIP and JNCIE program,
the lab passing rate is even much lower. A written
exam is another way for vendor(s) to generate revenue.
No more, no less.

Last but not least, we both agree that the CCMA cert
has no value at the moment anyway, except bragging right.

RobertMitchell

Posts: 9
Registered: 9/5/07
Re: Benefits to getting certified
Posted: Feb 20, 2008 10:44 AM   in response to: david tran
 
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"Are you saying that, as an anology, for someone who know
calculus and quantum physics, in order to take calculus and
physics exams, they have to take the basic adding and
substracting exams? It's a waste of time."

Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying - you can't get your PhD without getting your Bachelors and/or Masters degrees. and that's what the CCMA is, it's the PhD of Check Point.

" If/when CCMA becomes popular, you will see CCMA bootcamp."

Personally, I hope this never happens. As an elite certification, only the people at the top of the pyramid should be going for this. If it becomes popular, then its value will became less, because it's status as an elite certification goes out the window.

"It is not deeply flawed. As I've said before, the real
meat in the CCMA program is the CCMA lab exam. Do you know
that only about 3% of the people who passed the CCIE written
exam actually passed the CCIE lab exam? Of those who passed
the CCIE lab exam, it takes, on average, 3 attempts to pass
the CCIE lab exam. For Juniper JNCIP and JNCIE program,
the lab passing rate is even much lower. A written
exam is another way for vendor(s) to generate revenue.
No more, no less."

Your figures here prove the stupidity of allowing people to sit a single exam and think they are ready for a premier lab exam. It cannot be in Cisco's, Juniper's or Check Point's interest to run a lab test (which costs a buttload of time and money for the vendor as well as the participant!) which people have to sit 3+ times. Better to set a certification path that requires a person to pass through an appropriate level of hoops before they get to the lab test, so that they are adequately prepared. I don't see a problem with that reasoning. As you have already stated, these hoops are not massive, and provide incremental rewards anyway.

Anyway, this is not my argument, but Check Point's. CP are still depressingly quiet about the benefits, and there's no way I'm jumping on a plane three times to do a lab cert, that's for sure!

david tran

Posts: 75
Registered: 6/20/07
Re: Benefits to getting certified
Posted: Feb 24, 2008 11:28 PM   in response to: RobertMitchell
 
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"Personally, I hope this never happens. As an elite certification, only the people at the top of the pyramid should be going for this. If it becomes popular, then its value will became less, because it's status as an elite certification goes out the window."

Unfortunately, that is not how it works in real-life. Look at the CCIE program, there
are many bootcamps out there. It's not actually a bad thing. If checkpoint wants to
compete with cisco in the security business, checkpoint should produce as many CCMAs
as possible. They will be served as an extension of Checkpoint of some sorts. That's
what cisco does to the CCIE programs through it gold/silver/premier partnership.

"Your figures here prove the stupidity of allowing people to sit a single exam and think they are ready for a premier lab exam. It cannot be in Cisco's, Juniper's or Check Point's interest to run a lab test (which costs a buttload of time and money for the vendor as well as the participant!) which people have to sit 3+ times."

You can NOT stop people from doing dumb things.

I would say the passing rate for the CCIE written exam is quite high, probably in the
80% range. It is a very broad exam but has no meat in it. The exam is a joke,
just like CCSA/SE/SE+ plus exam. The difficulty is in the CCIE lab. That's why
it takes multiple times, at least 3+ attempts, to pass the ccie lab.

I can tell you that the CCIE and JNCIP/JNCIE lab is a "cash cow" for the vendors.
It now costs $1500, I think, to take the lab. and the lab is booked solid. When I
took the CCIE lab in SJ, there were about 20 seats there and it was completely full.
The cost was $1250 per seat, which translated into 25k/day. There were two proctors
for the lab if you pay those guys 150k/years. Tell me if that is NOT a profitable
business.

"Better to set a certification path that requires a person to pass through an appropriate level of hoops before they get to the lab test, so that they are adequately prepared"

You are NOT going to prepare anyone better for the lab by making them taking more
written exams. As I've said before, just about ALL written exams from Cisco,
Juniper and Checkpoint is a joke and nobody in the IT business should be taking
it seriously.

If you ask anyone who prepare for the CCIE program, almost all of them will tell you that
passing the written is a .1% accomplishment in the CCIE program. The other 99.9%
is in the lab exam. That's what make the CCIE program special.

Enough with the CCSA/SE/SE+ nonsense as a requirement for the CCMA written
exam. My time would actually better serve by preparing for the CCMA lab exam
instead. Just one CCMA written exam and get it over with the written exam
requirements. If people are stupid enough and throw away their money for the
CCMA written exam, so be it. You can NOT stop stupidity.

You're either a CCMA or you are not. There is no such thing as declaring yourself
as "CCMA written".

Guest
Re: Benefits to getting certified
Posted: Apr 24, 2008 8:55 PM   in response to: david tran
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Some really good comments and thoughts here. I'll add my two cents worth. Anybody who thinks that a lab generating $25K a day fails to consider the costs invisible to you. It takes about half a million dollars to develop and validate each version of the exam. Those twenty people were looking at several different versions of the exam. Each exam has to be evaluated by a panel of experts, not just the two proctors. You also have the staff of psychometricians that review and evaluate all the responses to the exams for validity and make recommendations for future revisions. This is a very expensive proposition.
As for pre-requisite exams, the requirement for the base three exams will not go away unless I am over-ridden from very high up.

Two reasons.

1. I'd rather a person disqualify themselves on a less expensive exam. It's cheaper for them, me, and you. The CCMA computer based exam is harder to write and maintain than the others, and having candidates pass the gauntlet of the other three limits the exposure of the exam to people who should not be taking it.

2. The second reason is related to the first. It's no secret that Check Point exams were severely compromised last year. That little fact has cost Check Point between half and three quarters of a million dollars this past year. Since the first of the year, exam fraud issues have consumed more than half of the Certification Department resources. That means we don't have time to develop support sites, promotions, or benefits packages. That's right - as long as there is the major potential that people are cheating on exams, benefits will be restricted. The three pre-requisite exams gives me three chances to catch cheaters before they can attack the CCMA exam. Example - the individual who scored 100 on the CCSA in seven minutes. You'd think getting a perfect score would be a good thing - right? Not when there are items on the exam keyed to catch these individuals. They are called trojans. Competent individuals will miss the trojans, which doesn't factor into their real score. People using an illegally obtained exam key will mark the trojans according to the key, instead of knowledge. Anyone caught in the resulting forensic analysis will have all certifications revoked and will be banned from Check Point exams for two years. It's all part of our efforts to keep Check Point exams from being the joke some people regrettably already think they are. I won't bore you with all the details, however the effort costs us about $500-$1000 per exam item that makes it into the pools for the tests. We are making a major effort to protect your investment. Each of the trojan items costs us $1000-1500 because we have to be able to prove statistically that the only way a person can get them right is to cheat. It's a big effort. Anyhow, to sum this long response up, I'd rather catch them on the pre-requisite exams, because once they've seen the Architect exam, the damage is already done.
Regards,
Ken Finley

Abigail Revan

Posts: 2
Registered: 4/21/17
Real CCIE Lab Workbook with Passing Guarantee
Posted: Apr 21, 2017 10:04 AM   in response to: david tran
 
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Abigail Revan

Posts: 2
Registered: 4/21/17
Re: Benefits to getting certified
Posted: May 2, 2017 2:31 PM   in response to: david tran
 
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Ammara Verik

Posts: 1
Registered: 5/4/17
Re: Benefits to getting certified
Posted: May 4, 2017 1:21 PM   in response to: david tran
 
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